Jennie Godfrey on The Barbecue at No. 9: Secrets from the Summer of ’85
What a joy it was to chat to Jennie Godfrey, I could have happily chatted for another hour. Jennie’s new book The Barbecue at No. 9 is out today and it is fabulous. One you absolutely do not want to miss.
No episode of Best Book Forward would be complete without book recommendations! Here’s everything we mentioned, with links to buy:
📚 By Jennie Godfrey
📚 The Books that have shaped Jennie
The Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson Burnett
Drinking: A Love Story by Caroline Knapp (currently unavailable on bookshop.org)
Rachel's Holiday by Marian Keyes
I’ll be back next week with the last in this season, don’t worry more are on the way, I’d love for you to join me for that too.
In the meantime, if you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review Best Book Forward, and don’t forget to tell your friends... it really helps new listeners discover the show.
See you tomorrow, and happy listening.
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Transcript
Welcome back to Best Book Forward.
Speaker A:I'm your host, Helen, and this is the podcast where I chat to authors about the books that have shaped their lives.
Speaker A:You can think of it as like a bookish version of Desert Island Discs.
Speaker A:We have got such a great episode ahead of us today as we're being joined by an author who I absolutely adore, the incredible Jenny Godfrey.
Speaker A:I fell in love with her debut, the List of Suspicious Things, and I know that you did too.
Speaker A:It was both a Sunday Times and a USA Today bestseller.
Speaker A: voted it best fiction in the: Speaker A:Today is publication day for Jenny's new book, the Barbecue at Number Nine.
Speaker A:And having read it twice, I can tell you that it is an absolutely brilliant read.
Speaker A:You're going to love it.
Speaker A: akes us back to the summer of: Speaker A:What follows is a heartwarming mystery that you will find impossible to put down.
Speaker A:Jenny joins me today to talk about the Barbecue at Number Nine, her inspirations and her incredible journey to publication, as well as the five books that have shaped her life.
Speaker A:So let's get straight into it and give Jenny a warm welcome to the show.
Speaker A:Jenny, welcome.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for joining me on Best Foot Forward today.
Speaker A:I'm so happy to be chatting to you.
Speaker B:I am thrilled to be chatting to you, Helen.
Speaker B:I feel like you've been on this whole journey with me over the last couple of years.
Speaker B:So this is great.
Speaker A:As I said to you just before, you've always been on my wish list to have on this podcast.
Speaker A:This is such a dream come true.
Speaker A:So we're recording this the week before Christmas, but this episode is going to come out on publication day for your incredible new novel, which I've just read for the second time this weekend, the Barbecue at Number Nine.
Speaker A:And I love this book, it's so good, Jenny, I love it.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:Do you want to start by telling everyone what it's all about then?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B: ecue at number nine is set in: Speaker B:But it's not about life, Live Aid.
Speaker B:It's actually about the residents of Delmont Close, which is a kind of new build wimpy estate where the residents are getting together for a barbecue for the first time to celebrate this obviously very historic event, the Live Aid concert.
Speaker B:But somebody is watching them and who and why is what we discover through the course of the novel, through the eyes of how Hannah, Rita, and Steve, all of whom live on Delmont Close, and all of whose secrets come tumbling out over the course of the 12 hours.
Speaker B:That would be my summary, and it.
Speaker A:Is a brilliant summary and it is such a fantastic read.
Speaker A:And these characters are amazing.
Speaker A:We're going to talk about the characters a little bit more as we go through.
Speaker A:We've just spoken and saying that this is a book that really needs to be protected from spoilers.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So we are going to keep it completely spoiler free.
Speaker A:So I always like to find out the inspiration.
Speaker A:So we're gonna go back to the beginning and find out.
Speaker A:Was it Live Aid?
Speaker A:Was there a character?
Speaker A:Was it the close?
Speaker A:What came first for you?
Speaker A:Where was the spark of inspiration for barbecue?
Speaker B:So I have this so far in my writing career.
Speaker B:I have this weird experience of the whole books appear in my mind fully formed.
Speaker B:So it doesn't start with anything.
Speaker B:It will just appear like, the list of suspicious things appeared in my mind on a dog walk, and the barbecue at number nine appeared in my mind on a train journey.
Speaker B:And there are probably, you know, like, things along the way that have clearly inspired it, but.
Speaker B:But they're all subconscious.
Speaker B:I wouldn't really know what they are.
Speaker B:But basically I was on a train and I was actually feeling a bit sad because I felt like, I don't know that I'm gonna be able to write a second book because I felt really frozen after the success of the list of suspicious things.
Speaker B:And I felt like whatever I write next has to be perfect.
Speaker B:And of course, you know, that's an impossible standard to set yourself.
Speaker B:And so therefore, I thought I might only write one book.
Speaker B:And I was feeling very sa about it on this train journey when suddenly this story, if you like, and the only way I can describe it is it feels like a film appears in my mind and this story of this close and the characters within it and their secrets appears in my mind.
Speaker B:And I knew instantly, I almost laughed out loud on this train because I was like, oh, here it is again.
Speaker B:This is going to be my next book.
Speaker B:And I know, like, without a doubt, I know that my agent and my editor are going to go, yep, this is your second book.
Speaker A:Isn't that amazing?
Speaker A:Isn't that, like, that it happened twice?
Speaker A:I always love hearing how it's so different for some authors that, you know, they might see a character walking.
Speaker A:But I've not heard anyone saying that the whole thing comes.
Speaker A:Did you Then literally on the train, get your phone out and start tapping away.
Speaker B:That's exactly what I did.
Speaker B:So immediately sort of half laughing, well, I also felt a little bit like, oh, not now.
Speaker B:I'm on a pack train.
Speaker B:I'm feeling very sorry for myself.
Speaker B:But I did know that I wasn't going to be able to ignore this idea.
Speaker B:So I just made some quick notes on my phone and then over the course of the next couple of weeks, more and more of the idea sort of was revealed.
Speaker B:And I'm always really interested in the way that other writers work because every single one of us has a completely unique process.
Speaker B:It's one of the things I love about creativity.
Speaker A:Isn't it amazing?
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:I mean, I always say to people, I was like, I wish I had that upgrade in my brain because nothing has ever sparked for me like that.
Speaker A:I just think when people talk.
Speaker A:I mean, I was just talking to Alexandra Potter and she said she saw a caravan.
Speaker A:She's like, oh, I wonder who lives there.
Speaker A:Oh, I know who lives there.
Speaker A:Boom, there's a story.
Speaker A:I was like, love that.
Speaker B:Love that so much.
Speaker A:That's great, isn't it?
Speaker A:We'll talk more about sort of.
Speaker A:Because I am really interested in that sort of feeling of, you know, the list is.
Speaker A:Oh, I knew I was going to do that.
Speaker A:We know I can't say it.
Speaker A:The list.
Speaker A:I'm going to call it the list.
Speaker B:Perfect.
Speaker A:That's okay.
Speaker A:So we don't have me spluttering overfish all the way through, but yeah, how that was for you because it was such a brilliant book and so successful as well.
Speaker A:So we'll talk about.
Speaker A:About that a little bit later as well.
Speaker A:So let's talk about Hannah then at number nine and her family.
Speaker A:So there's lots of secrets and struggles going on in this family.
Speaker A:Hannah is a brilliant character.
Speaker A:She's one of my favorites in there, actually, in their house.
Speaker A:There's also their little dog is one of my favorite.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:So do you want to tell us about number nine, who lives there and how they came to you, how you built their story?
Speaker B: r nine are the quintessential: Speaker B:Mum, dad, brother and sister, little dog, the Jack Russell prince and the mum in particular.
Speaker B:She is one of my favorites, Lydia, because she's one of those kind of.
Speaker B:She's embraced the aspirational 80s.
Speaker B:She wants her family to appear like the most perfect family.
Speaker B:She's obsessed with Dallas and Dynasty.
Speaker B:She wants to be Chris Crystal Carrington from Dynasty.
Speaker B: ple's bodies, which is a real: Speaker B:And her husband Peter is along for the ride.
Speaker B:He wants the family to appear like the aspirationally brilliant family too.
Speaker B:But he's got his own story to tell.
Speaker B:And Hannah just doesn't fit in.
Speaker B:She's a little goth, she dresses in black, she listens to the Cure, but she also experiences the world mainly through music.
Speaker B:That's her passion, it's her obsession.
Speaker B:And she just isn't in step with the rest of her family.
Speaker B:And I am a bit obsessed with kind of misfit characters and misfit teenagers in particular, because I was one.
Speaker B:So I love to write them and I loved to write Hannah.
Speaker A:Yeah, Hannah's great, I love her.
Speaker A:But when you say that about the 80s family and things, something I think you do so well, and you did in the list as well, is that these little touches of like.
Speaker A:So Lydia will be like, not that family.
Speaker A:And I was like, do people say that anymore?
Speaker A:Because it feels so 80s, doesn't it?
Speaker A:To like.
Speaker B:It does, but so a little.
Speaker B:Well, it's not a secret because I'm about to tell you, but it's also the acknowledgments of the book.
Speaker B:I actually stole that family from Sophie Hannah.
Speaker B:So do you know, you know the writer, thriller writer, Sophie Hannah?
Speaker B:So I was at dinner with her one evening and she was talking about her brother in law who would always say, we don't want to be thought of as that family.
Speaker B:And he was very conscious of, you know, what, what the family did and how they appeared to the rest of the street.
Speaker B:And I immediately said to her, I'm sorry Sophie, I have to have that for a book.
Speaker B:Would you mind asking your brother in law if I can steal it?
Speaker B:And she did.
Speaker B:And he said yes.
Speaker B:Found it very funny that I wanted it for a book.
Speaker B:And so it's a real life thing, you know, somebody not wanting to appear like that for family makes them adjust their behavior in public.
Speaker A:Yeah, but it must be.
Speaker A:I mean, obviously they said it, but it must be a thing of that time because when I read it I was like, oh, I just really laughed.
Speaker A:I don't know if I remember my mum saying, yeah, she probably did, you know, I mean those.
Speaker A:Those kids out being wild.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay, let's talk more about Hannah then.
Speaker A:And something I loved about Hannah and I'm really interested because obviously you did it in list as well with Miv and Sharon.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:How do you put yourself into their shoes?
Speaker A:To capture them so well, so believably because I, I totally believe that they were young and I just really, I'm really interested.
Speaker A:What do you do to tap into them?
Speaker B:Well, first of all, Helen, I have never grown up.
Speaker B:Oh, I'm such a Peter Pan.
Speaker B:And I don't, I mean, I've, I've, I've moved on from adolescence in some ways, but I'm still a teenager at heart.
Speaker B:So I don't actually find it that difficult to kind of think in teenage ways, sadly.
Speaker B:But also I have the, I guess the luck or good fortune of having kept a diary since I was 13.
Speaker B:And I have boxes and boxes of my teenage ramblings.
Speaker B:And I used to write very intimately about my life and feelings as a teenager.
Speaker B: ng, I just go back to me as a: Speaker A:I love that I didn't keep a diary, but I'm reminded when I first, the first ever series of this podcast, I had Nina Stibby on and talking about diaries.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And she said, when you keep a diary, it's a gift to your future self.
Speaker A:But it's in your case, it's a gift to us as well.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:Yeah, that is amazing.
Speaker B:I mean, of course I had no idea when I was writing it that I would be as a 55 year old woman mining my teenage thoughts in that way, but it is a gift.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Teen, you is probably a little bit mortified then as well.
Speaker B:Oh, it's so embarrassing.
Speaker B:It's so embarrassing.
Speaker B:Let me tell you.
Speaker A:That is brilliant.
Speaker A:Okay, so Del Mart clothes.
Speaker A:We have all these families, there are secrets and struggles all through this close little bit reminded me of Brookside because some of the secrets are a little bit more dramatic than others.
Speaker A:Yes, I loved Brookside.
Speaker B:Well, so I'm so glad you've said that.
Speaker B:And somebody else in a review has also picked that out as well.
Speaker B: to soap operas because in the: Speaker B:So they were events, they were televisual events.
Speaker B:And you don't have that now in the same way.
Speaker B:And one of my vivid memories of my teenage years is of there was a big storyline in EastEnders about who's the father of Michelle's baby.
Speaker B:And I happen to be.
Speaker B:This is going to reveal my very unglamorous teenage years.
Speaker B:Helen.
Speaker B:I happened to be on holiday with my family in Bognerigous Butlins.
Speaker B:When the father of Michelle's baby was revealed and you basically didn't have then television in your chalet, you had to go to the television lounge.
Speaker B:And I remember that episode that revealed the father of Michelle's baby.
Speaker B:The television lounge was so full, it was like standing room only.
Speaker B:Nobody could breathe because there were so many people in this television lounge watching.
Speaker B:And it was like a national event, this revelation.
Speaker B:And I wanted the book to feel like.
Speaker B:I mean, there is a.
Speaker B:It isn't a spoiler to say, because we know that Hannah.
Speaker B:Very quickly, that Hannah is pregnant.
Speaker B: ith soap operas we had in the: Speaker B:So I love the fact that you've called that out.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Do you know, it's funny that you say that, how important they were, because my daughter was looking at the TV the other day and she's like, what's EastEnders?
Speaker A:And I was like, that's been going since I was a kid.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker A:And I was trying to explain it to her and she was just like, wait, so the same actors have been doing it that whole time?
Speaker A:I'm like, yes, but back in the day, it was huge.
Speaker A:Like, you know, you'd get the dum dum, dum.
Speaker A:You want to know what happened next.
Speaker A:But I guess you know them now, they're 13.
Speaker A:My twins, you know, they've got Stranger Things and they watch that miniseries, but they don't have that sort of.
Speaker A:They're not into, like.
Speaker A:We were like, yeah, because I said about Neighbors as well, if you were off sick, you got to watch it twice.
Speaker A:You got to watch it at lunchtime and then at 5 o' clock as well.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's hard to overstate how important they were to our culture at the time.
Speaker B:And I really wanted to make sure that was reflected in the novel.
Speaker B:But I've put it in some quite subtle ways that only devoted fans of soap operas will notice.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:I've showed myself as a true Brookside fan.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So when you were writing, I know you said it all came to you sort of fully formed.
Speaker A:It's sort of like almost like a bird's eye view of this close.
Speaker A:So you're sort of learning who's who and who's got what secrets.
Speaker A:Did all of the families come at once or did they sort of move in as you were writing and their secrets get revealed in that way?
Speaker A:Or did you know from the start.
Speaker B:For the three main Characters Hannah, Rita and Steve.
Speaker B:I knew their stories up front.
Speaker B:That was part of the kind of little film that I was watching on the train.
Speaker B:Sounds like a ridiculous thing to say, but everyone else was kind of afterwards.
Speaker B:So people like Davina, 3Dads, Divina, who moves in and is a single mom.
Speaker B:And it's very shocking.
Speaker B:They all came afterwards.
Speaker B:And slow.
Speaker B:It felt like slowly but surely the kind of interwoven stories of everyone in the close took shape.
Speaker B:But they're three main ones I knew up front.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You write that.
Speaker A:So it's told obviously from the different points of views and it's so seamless.
Speaker A:As I said, I've just read it for the second time.
Speaker A:The first time I read it, we got together for like a bookstagrammer evening where you were talking about it.
Speaker A:And I said at the time, I was like, I'm really torn because obviously I want to hear you talk about it, but I'm at a really good bit.
Speaker A:I don't want to just like sink into my chair and read.
Speaker A:When you're writing a book like this that has the different points of views and the stories, how do you keep track of it?
Speaker A:Is it quite difficult to plan structurally, or do you just literally sit and bash?
Speaker B:Oh, I.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's a great question.
Speaker B:And I have, I guess because my.
Speaker B:My brain is very ordered.
Speaker B:I'm not a messy writer or a messy person in any way, shape or form.
Speaker B:So, you know, the list of suspicious things is in the form of a list.
Speaker B:The barbecue at number nine is in the form of 12 hours.
Speaker B:And breaking down a story into those constituent parts, I've discovered for me is.
Speaker B:Makes the.
Speaker B:The plotting of it much, much easier, because I can.
Speaker B:Then when I'm planning, I just break it down into, okay, what's got to happen in that hour?
Speaker B:Or what's got.
Speaker B:Got to happen in that item on the list.
Speaker B:But I've got to say, and I have been having a conversation about this with some writer friends recently, I do keep it all in my brain, rather than have it all necessarily written out.
Speaker B:I just have a brain that is able to keep things in order until they're needed.
Speaker B:And thank goodness for that, because genuinely, when it's finished, I look back myself and go, how did that happen?
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:I do not have an ordered brain at all.
Speaker A:So that would just be pandemonium.
Speaker A:I'm just thinking for anyone who hasn't read either of these books, so obviously the barbecue's out when this comes out.
Speaker A:When you talk about the structure, they.
Speaker A:They read when you say it's, like, structured like a list, and then the times you just read it so effortlessly, it's just.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:They're so.
Speaker A:They're just page turners, and they're the page turners that I love.
Speaker A:Because you're torn between like, oh, I'm going a bit too fast.
Speaker A:I'm gonna finish it.
Speaker A:I'm gonna finish it, and then I have to wait for the next one.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:So if you haven't read either of them, you.
Speaker A:You really must pick them both up.
Speaker A:They are brilliant.
Speaker B:It's so flattering of you say that, because when I decided to write a book, that's the book that's the emotion I wanted to create in readers.
Speaker B:Because that's the emotion I love when I'm reading, where you're like, I want to stay with these characters, but I desperately want to know what happens.
Speaker B:Those two things fighting with each other is what I wanted to create.
Speaker B:So it makes me really happy when that has happened for someone.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:It's just magic when that happens, isn't it?
Speaker A:It's just the best thing.
Speaker A:And then, like, when you put the book down, you're sort of making your dinner or whatever.
Speaker A:You're like, oh, I can't wait to go back.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:To them and see what's happening.
Speaker B:As if you really are peeking around the curtain of their lives.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker A:I do.
Speaker A:I do.
Speaker A:Okay, so we're not.
Speaker A:We're gonna be very careful not to stray into spoiler territory, but the barbecue does tackle some quite big themes as well.
Speaker A:And, you know, you write with so much warmth, and, you know, they've just feel good reads that you want sort of hug at the end.
Speaker A:So two questions, like, how do you sort of manage balancing tackling themes that can be sort of quite difficult.
Speaker A:And how does that feel for you emotionally when you're sort of writing your characters that are going through some really difficult times?
Speaker B:So again, this is a question somebody asked me, a writer friend the other week.
Speaker B:Like, how do you do that?
Speaker B:The light with the darkness.
Speaker B:And, you know, I'm about to say that my books are funny.
Speaker B:That sounds like a terrible thing for a writer to say, but it's.
Speaker B:But, you know, I intentionally put humor in them because that's who I am.
Speaker B:And I don't.
Speaker B:It's not that I don't think about how to balance those two, but it is about how that's how I see life.
Speaker B:So I think life is like my books in that lots of really dark and difficult things happen and lots of funny and joyful and heartwarming things happen.
Speaker B:And it's my job as a writer to write the truth of those.
Speaker B:So I don't necessarily think about it as in how am I going to balance the two and make sure I get it right.
Speaker B:It's more about how am I going to write truthfully, how I am about what life is really like.
Speaker B:Does that make sense?
Speaker A:Yeah, it does.
Speaker A:It does.
Speaker A:And actually, I think your book, I mean, I've.
Speaker A:We met very briefly at the Women's Prize earlier this year.
Speaker A:We've spoken on a zoom before.
Speaker A:And now from the little times I've sort of spent with you, I feel like your books are very much like who you are.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:You know, I feel your vibe in your books.
Speaker A:Does that make sense?
Speaker A:That weird.
Speaker B:I really hope so because that is something, again, that's really important to me.
Speaker B:It's not for every writer, but I, I suppose I, I want my voice to be in the books.
Speaker B:And if my voice is in the books, then that will come across in, in that way of.
Speaker B:Because I. I see the light and the dark in the world and in fact it's the only way I get through the dark is, is by finding lightness and hope and connection and.
Speaker B:Yeah, I hope that does shine out through the books.
Speaker A:It really does.
Speaker A:It really, really does.
Speaker A:So when you are writing a character who has had something very difficult, or do you, do you feel a connection?
Speaker A:Do you feel it's quite emotional for you to write?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And so in this book in particular, when I'm writing quite far out of my experience, which I am with Steve and I was with Omar in the list of suspicious things, I spend a lot of time with them and I immerse myself in their worlds and seek out kind of first person, real life accounts of people who are in those situations, whatever those situations might be, be.
Speaker B:And I will really sit with them and look at life through their eyes.
Speaker B:And with both Steve and Omar, I probably did the most deep dive research on both of them because they were so far out of my experience, while at the same time realizing the more I read about their experiences, the more human beings are fundamentally connected when you, you know, go deep down into them.
Speaker B:That sounds very trite, I'm aware, but.
Speaker A:I do believe that, yeah, I love Steve as well.
Speaker A:He's such a great character.
Speaker A:I guess, like I was saying about you, how you tap into the younger voices because you do write your men very well as well.
Speaker A:So that's interesting that you sort of done that you're just brilliant, Jenny.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Well, I was.
Speaker B:It's been really surprising to me how many men are big fans of the list of suspicious things.
Speaker B:But then I, I realized that actually there are five voices in list and although obviously the main one, M is a girl, three of the other voices are men.
Speaker B:And with barbecue there are four voices and two of them are men.
Speaker B:I seem to want to write men and it' intensely flattering to me when men really relate to the books.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, I love that men are picking them up.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Big time.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I was just.
Speaker A:I've got my in laws here actually at the moment.
Speaker A:I was just saying to my father in law, I was telling him about the list, he's like, oh, that sounds like one I'd enjoy.
Speaker A:You can read it while you're here.
Speaker B:Fabulous.
Speaker A:So your new.
Speaker A:Your next new man to read.
Speaker A:You mentioned there about connection and something that you want to in your books.
Speaker A:And I was thinking about this yesterday.
Speaker A:I saw your post on Instagram about how the list has gone back into the top 100 books on Amazon just before Christmas.
Speaker A:And I was like, it's okay.
Speaker A:It probably is people giving it as Christmas presents because it's a great read.
Speaker A:But I was wondering how much of it is people wanting that sort of sense of connection and community which you do so well in your books.
Speaker A:Whether people are reading and sort of saying, you know, that sort of passing through.
Speaker A:Do you think that's something that people are finding in your books?
Speaker B:Well, I mean it sounds very grand to say, oh, that's definitely what they're finding.
Speaker B:However, I hope that's the case because I remember writing it during lockdown list.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:I wrote it during lockdown at the most scary time where we didn't know what was going to happen in the future and where we genuinely felt like we are in uncharted territory and that this is really anxiety inducing.
Speaker B:And so I really wanted to write a hopeful book.
Speaker B:And I'd love to say that everything's changed now and we're all fine, but in some ways things have got worse.
Speaker B:And you know, I, I am a fan of a dark, heartbreaking book big time.
Speaker B:Like I love dark books.
Speaker B:It turns out I'm not going to write them or not yet anyway.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:There's something about.
Speaker B:I want to explore connection and community.
Speaker B:And in my third book, which I'm writing now, you know, some of those themes are in there too.
Speaker B:And I think it is as a response to the world right now and maybe if the world gets happier which, fingers crossed it will, I'll start writing really dark, heartbreaking books.
Speaker A:It's so interesting when you think, actually when you say that about being in lockdown, because so many lovely books came out.
Speaker A:The rest of us were sitting here, like, pulling our hair out, that you were able to sort of.
Speaker A:To channel that and create something that we all need.
Speaker A:Desperately needed.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:But I think with your books as well, like, you are getting that connection and.
Speaker A:But there's so much more.
Speaker A:Like, you know, when you think, as I say, it's hard to sort of talk about it because you don't go into spoilers, but you're exploring lives that have had some really difficult moments.
Speaker A:So, yes, there's depth to it as well.
Speaker A:You know, this connection, there's humor, but there's also a lot sort of connect you and make you think about how other people live and struggle through their lives.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Because I.
Speaker B:One of the things I was conscious of was and is I don't want my books to be tweeted.
Speaker B:And twee's fine, but it's not for me.
Speaker B:And so back to, I guess back to what I was saying about real life.
Speaker B:So real lives are filled with all the light and shade that you can possibly imagine.
Speaker B:And I didn't want to shy away from that, shy away from the darker elements.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's a. I mean, it is a funny mix to try and put together.
Speaker B:Yeah, it works well.
Speaker B:I'm really glad in your hands, it works.
Speaker B:I'm genuinely really glad it works.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:It really does.
Speaker A:So something that barbecue at number nine does really, really well made me smile so many times.
Speaker A:There's just so many things that you're like, I forgot about that.
Speaker A:I forgot this.
Speaker A:That is so.
Speaker A:Disappointed.
Speaker A:Nostalgic.
Speaker A:My daughter and her friends, that.
Speaker A:My twins are 13.
Speaker A:My daughter and her friends, they want to read the list together with me.
Speaker B:Yay.
Speaker A:And then I was like, saying about this and I was thinking, oh, I'm gonna have to explain so much to you because, like, you know, the recording, the top 40 and stuff, they're gonna say it's gonna be kind of lost on them.
Speaker A:But for me to look back was just brilliant.
Speaker A:There's so many things like CNA and all that.
Speaker A:So how much fun did you have picking through?
Speaker A:Yeah, so much while you were writing.
Speaker B:I had so much fun because the.
Speaker B:The background to list of suspicious things being quite a dark period in British history.
Speaker B:The research for that was much darker.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B: But: Speaker B:I.
Speaker B: , called the: Speaker B: ods that you could buy in the: Speaker B:And I don't know if you remember Ice Magic, where you.
Speaker B:It was a sauce you poured on ice cream that hardened.
Speaker B:I mean, it must have been disgustingly filled with the worst kind of E numbers.
Speaker B:But at the time, it's like if you.
Speaker B:If Mum got you Ice Magic, you were very, very happy.
Speaker B: had so much fun watching the: Speaker B:And I have watched Live Aid more times than is recommended or natural.
Speaker B:You you name about.
Speaker B:I'll tell you when, whether they were on Live Aid and what time.
Speaker B:But I had so much fun doing that as well, because music is such a jogger for the memory, you know, it puts you back in a place and a time.
Speaker B: d so even just listening to a: Speaker B:It's a little bit like, we're so pop.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:You know, it's impo.
Speaker B: ortant music was to us in the: Speaker B:And the thing about Live Aid was that it was everyone who was obsessed with it, from parents and grandparents to children, because the culture was very monoculture then, it wasn't as separated as it is now, so it felt like a very uniting event.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:It was so funny actually watching Live Aid as an adult, because all I could think it was so hot that day, and all I could think about, and this appears in the book, as you might have noticed, is how hot everyone was because they were all wearing leather jackets.
Speaker A:But that's so interesting because I was thinking this as well, reading Barbecue and Live Aid, because I was like.
Speaker A:When I knew that it was around Live Aid, I was like, oh, that's such a clever anchor for a book, because it's such a significant moment that people will remember.
Speaker A:But as I was reading, I was thinking music really was so much more.
Speaker A:I don't know, maybe my kids might say this was important to them now, but I remember waiting for, like, music videos and hits.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Recording the top 40.
Speaker A:You just put the Sellotape across the top of your cassette.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And try and, like, stop it.
Speaker A:So you didn't get the ads.
Speaker A:It was so important, wasn't it?
Speaker A:It was just huge part of a lot.
Speaker A:And as you say, it transports you back to so many.
Speaker A:You can listen to a song and you'll know exactly where you were or.
Speaker A:Yes, whatever.
Speaker A:So it was so clever to have used.
Speaker A:And I love how you did it by the hour going through.
Speaker A:I'm gonna go.
Speaker A:I haven't watched it yet, so I'm gonna go back.
Speaker A:My sister said the new documentary they just did was amazing.
Speaker B:Oh, it's so good.
Speaker B:It's so good.
Speaker B:Yeah, Def.
Speaker B:I'd really recommend that documentary.
Speaker B:It was very, very good.
Speaker A:I'm gonna go and watch that then.
Speaker A:So, not that I felt in any way like I was left unsatisfied, but there are so many great characters in Barbecue.
Speaker A:Are there any that you would consider picking up and sort of revisiting to tell more of their story?
Speaker A:And did you have any that were more fun to write than the others?
Speaker B:So I would love to write to Veena's story because she's got a really rich history, and I'm not going to do any spoilers about where she ends up, but I would love to carry that on and find out, you know, where she ends up 20 further years later.
Speaker B:So Davina's definitely one that I'd love to revisit.
Speaker B:I also really care about the o', Learys, and they're only in for a very, very small amount of time, but I think that they've got a very interesting story to tell.
Speaker B:And probably my favorite side characters in terms of their comedy value are Uncle Keith and Auntie Beverly.
Speaker B:Now, I couldn't make a novel out of them because they're too annoying, but I.
Speaker B:You know, they could definitely reappear in future novels to be the kind of added comedy.
Speaker B:But then there's Tina, who is Steve's mother.
Speaker B:Oh, now you're making me think of them all.
Speaker B:I just love them all, Helen.
Speaker A:Basically, that is such a great cast of guests.
Speaker A:And as you say that there's like, the comedy values as the ones who have, like, got stories, you're like, oh, what's.
Speaker A:Who's.
Speaker A:That is so in your mind, when you finish the book, then do you know where they all are or do you leave them as you've left them in the book?
Speaker B:Leave them as I've left them in the book.
Speaker B:And that was really true of List as well.
Speaker B:Yeah, that I.
Speaker B:Because to me, they are real people.
Speaker B:I think they're living their lives.
Speaker B:So I don't know what's happening to them unless I choose to kind of peek behind the curtain and have another look at them.
Speaker B:But they are living their lives.
Speaker B:Somewhere out there is kind of how I see it.
Speaker A:Love that.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I would love to talk a little bit about your writing journey because I think your story is incredible.
Speaker A:It just, every time I hear it, I just think that's so amazing, so brave, and such a huge success story.
Speaker A:So could you tell everyone a little bit who hasn't heard the story of how you came to be a writer?
Speaker A:Because it's just incredible.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because even I.
Speaker B:Even I think it's pretty astonishing.
Speaker B:Like, I often feel like I'm in a dream.
Speaker B:So I have been a bookworm my whole life, absolutely without a doubt.
Speaker B:And if you'd asked me what I wanted to be when I was seven, I would have said an authoress, because I basically wanted to be Enid Blyton.
Speaker B:And that kind of love of books has continued throughout my life.
Speaker B:But it's the kind of job, if you can even call it a job or vocational calling or whatever you want to call it, that I felt was out of reach for someone like me.
Speaker B:I was from a very working class Yorkshire family.
Speaker B:The only aspirations my parents had for me were to get out and get a job.
Speaker B:And, you know, I built a career in the corporate world, which I was very obsessed by.
Speaker B:And it mattered to me a lot.
Speaker B:And particularly in my 20s and 30s, that was all that mattered to me.
Speaker B:And then around my 40s, I started to essentially have a massive midlife crisis.
Speaker B:What am I doing with my life?
Speaker B:Do I really want to be doing this anymore?
Speaker B:And my mental and physical health started to suffer.
Speaker B:I got very anxious.
Speaker B:And eventually it was actually an executive coach who said to me, do you even want to be doing this career anymore?
Speaker B:And I answered without hesitation, no, I don't.
Speaker B:And I took redundancy from my job and I decided I was going to take some time off to decide what I wanted to do next.
Speaker B:And while I decided what I was going to do next, I was going to write a book.
Speaker B:Because, you know, as a seven year old, that is what I wanted to do.
Speaker B:And that was six years ago, nearly seven years ago now.
Speaker B:So it turned out that that was what I was going to do next.
Speaker B:And I have just had the experience that lots of people dream of, I suppose, where I found an agent very quickly.
Speaker B:I got a book deal, very easy, easily.
Speaker B:I'm going to put that in quotes, by the way, the easily bit, because it was very fast.
Speaker B:But I had done a lot of work and rewriting of the book before it went on submission.
Speaker B:And then, since then, I mean, I have the dream publishing team and we all work brilliantly Together, and they're fantastic people, and everything just seems to have gone just so well.
Speaker B:I'm so lucky, Helen.
Speaker B:I am the luckiest woman.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, you're lucky, yes.
Speaker A:But you also worked very hard, and you're incredibly talented.
Speaker A:So it's like.
Speaker A:It's not just that it fell in your lap.
Speaker A:There's a lot that's gone in there.
Speaker A:Do you know when you were just saying that, I was thinking when you.
Speaker A:When this coach asked you if this is what you want to do, how you said no straight away, I was like, how often our truth is there, but we sort of.
Speaker A:I don't know if it's because we're afraid or, yes, whatever, but quite often we know exactly what we want.
Speaker A:But, yeah, it's hot.
Speaker A:It's hot.
Speaker A:But it's scary as well.
Speaker A:Like, you think in your 40s, you have responsibilities, mortgage, all that stuff.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's really brave.
Speaker B:It was really scary, by the way.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:When I tell that story, I.
Speaker B:You know, I tell it in a kind of short way for brevity, but I felt like I was jumping off a cliff without a parachute at the time, and it was terrifying.
Speaker B:I mean, thank goodness.
Speaker B:I'm going to touch what, lots of wood now as I say this.
Speaker B:Thank goodness.
Speaker B:I mean, it worked out in a way that I could only have dreamed of.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But you're right about.
Speaker B:I knew.
Speaker B:As soon as he asked that question, I knew this isn't what I should be doing anymore.
Speaker A:Yeah, interesting.
Speaker A:So you jumped off the cliff and landed in dreamworld with this incredible novel that has just done so well, loved by so, so many.
Speaker A:And it's still.
Speaker A:Still.
Speaker A:And actually, I think with barbecue.
Speaker A:So I was very lucky.
Speaker A:I got given two proofs, and I got to do a giveaway with one.
Speaker A:And I was like, this shows how excited people are about your book.
Speaker A:Because when I posted the giveaway, I felt like I dropped some meat into a piranha plant tank.
Speaker A:It was just like, I just got completely bombarded by people, but people were entering.
Speaker A:They're like, if you could pick me.
Speaker A:Because I really loved the list, and I really.
Speaker A:And I was like, oh, my God, everyone's desperate for this book.
Speaker A:And the good news is, it's so worth the wait.
Speaker A:It is such a brilliant read.
Speaker B:So, I mean, I genuinely.
Speaker B:Well, you know, I said at the beginning that I'm nervous.
Speaker B:It just feels like, you know, I.
Speaker B:List is beloved by more people than I could have ever imagined.
Speaker B:And I feel a responsibility not to let people down.
Speaker B:And you can't let that get into your head too much as a writer.
Speaker B:But at the same time, readers really matter to me.
Speaker B:So I've had to play quite a lot of psychological tricks on myself to get the book done.
Speaker B:In fact, I had to pretend while I was writing it that I was never going to show anyone.
Speaker B:That's the only way I could get it done.
Speaker B:Because I was so conscious of what people might think that I started to, you know, almost not be able to write any words at all.
Speaker B:So I just had to pretend I will never show this to anyone to allow me to finish it.
Speaker A:So where were you in terms of the list had come out.
Speaker A:How far into writing Barbecue were you?
Speaker A:Had you got enough under your belt?
Speaker B:Oh, none.
Speaker A:Oh, yes.
Speaker A:That's hard then.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm, it's my number one recommendation to every writer is write as much of your second book as you can.
Speaker B:Before your first book was out, I hadn't written a word.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:That's one of my big regrets.
Speaker A:Did you have the idea?
Speaker B:No, no.
Speaker A:Oh, no.
Speaker A:Oh, that's really terrible.
Speaker B:Terrible.
Speaker B:That's why I'm writing as much of my third book as I can before Barbecue is out.
Speaker A:Oh, amazing.
Speaker A:Are we.
Speaker A:So with List, it's set in the 70s, barbecue is set in the 80s.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You've mentioned you're working on something new.
Speaker A:Are you able to tell us a little?
Speaker A:Are we going 90s?
Speaker B:We totally are going 90s.
Speaker A:Are we?
Speaker B:Oh, great.
Speaker B:And I had the idea for my third book before I had the idea for Barbecue.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:So I've been waiting to write it for two years and I'm so excited about it.
Speaker B: months of: Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:Did you enjoy Barbecue then, when you started one side?
Speaker B:Yeah, once I'd had the idea, loved writing it and, and actually I loved.
Speaker B:You might be able to hear a cuckoo clock in the background.
Speaker B:I forgot to turn the sound down.
Speaker A:Oh, I love that.
Speaker A:That's cute.
Speaker B:I do have a cuckoo clock.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I, I, I've, I'm Again, when people talk about writing as being tortuous and difficult and horrible, I don't have that experience.
Speaker B:It's my greatest joy is the actual writing process.
Speaker B:So I'm en.
Speaker B:Getting to the idea is the bit that I find difficult until I've had my epiphany.
Speaker B:But, yeah, I'm very much enjoying writing.
Speaker A:Book Three, I'm trying to think.
Speaker A:I'm like, what happened?
Speaker A:I'm terrible.
Speaker A:My memories are bad.
Speaker A: I'm like, what happened in: Speaker B: Oh,: Speaker B:So it was pop.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:New labor came into power.
Speaker B:Princess Diana died.
Speaker B:It was a huge year in British history.
Speaker B:So I'll remind you of it all when you read the third one.
Speaker A:Well, no pressure, but can I have that now, please?
Speaker B:That's so brilliant.
Speaker A:Oh, so the barbecue at number nine is out now as this podcast goes out.
Speaker A:Highly recommend.
Speaker A:So, yeah, happy publication day.
Speaker B:Thanks.
Speaker A:And, you know, if you're getting.
Speaker A:If you're getting one, you should really get two.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker B:I think you're absolutely right.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Okay, so we're going to move on to talk about your book choices, but before we do, all of the books that we're talking about will be linked with links to buy in the show notes.
Speaker A:So nice and easy for everyone to find.
Speaker A:So, Jenny, how did you find picking your five books?
Speaker A:Was it hard for you?
Speaker B:No, it wasn't hard for me at all because there are certain books that I have returned to again and again and again.
Speaker B:And all the five books that are on my list I've read multiple times, and a couple of them really genuinely changed my life.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I didn't find it hard.
Speaker A:Okay, perfect.
Speaker A:Okay, well, should we jump straight in and do you want to tell us about your first book choice?
Speaker B:Yeah, sure.
Speaker B:It's the Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson Burnett.
Speaker B:And this was the book.
Speaker B:Book, I guess.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:I had grown up on Enid Blyton books, and in England, blight books.
Speaker B:All the children are very posh and they live a life of ginger beer and sandwiches and aren't Fanny and Uncle Quentin?
Speaker B:And when I was probably about nine or ten, I was given.
Speaker B:Maybe I can't even remember, but I got the Secret Garden.
Speaker B:And I would say that that was the book that opened up the world of literature to me because the characters in the Secret Garden, it isn't just posh children.
Speaker B:There is also Dickon and Betty the maid.
Speaker B:And it shows human life in all its richness.
Speaker B:And there are some really dark themes in the Secret Garden, and yet it unfolds with such hope and connection.
Speaker B:I mean, it just basically is a kind of microcosm of what I want to create from writing.
Speaker B:I remember being so immersed in that world, but also having that kind of lump in my throat at the end, at the sadness and joy that the book creates.
Speaker B:It was also the first book I read that had Yorkshire dialect in it.
Speaker B:And being a girl from Yorkshire, that felt like something quite significant to me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, it's so important, isn't it?
Speaker A:I think when you think about this.
Speaker A:That's why I love doing this.
Speaker A:Sometimes when you think it's so important that people, but especially children, see themselves.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:In books, which I think now it's like, you know, I would say probably everyone could find a book that they.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Child.
Speaker A:Could see themselves in.
Speaker A:But it, as you say, it wasn't.
Speaker B:It wasn't as common.
Speaker B:No, no, no.
Speaker B:Absolutely not.
Speaker A:The Secret Garden has never been picked on this series before, which is something I'm so surprised.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I was really surprised because it's one of the ones I thought would be a real sort of shaper of readers.
Speaker A:So I'm so happy you picked it because I remember loving it as well.
Speaker A:And I was like, I'm just so.
Speaker A:Enid Blyton gets picked a lot.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:As well.
Speaker A:But I think she's quite.
Speaker A:Although you could grow up with her books, but she starts you quite young.
Speaker A:But this is sort of maybe more like the independent reading where you find that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yourself.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And it felt like.
Speaker B:So Enid Blyton books are amazing, but they're not necessarily emotional.
Speaker B:And the Secret Garden for me is hugely emotional.
Speaker A:I'm trying to remember the whole story now.
Speaker A:I'm like, I want to read it now and get the lump in my throat.
Speaker A:What does that say about me that I want to read something that's going to have a lump in my throat?
Speaker B:I would.
Speaker B:It stands up, by the way, because I read it again.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker B:Oh, it really stands up.
Speaker B:I'd highly recommend a reading.
Speaker A:So I do buddy reads with my daughter.
Speaker A:So, yeah, that's our list, actually, to see how we get with that.
Speaker A:Okay, so should we move on to your second book choice, then?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Now, I can't remember what order I put them on when I sent them to.
Speaker A:You go whichever.
Speaker A:Whichever order you want.
Speaker B:But I'm going to put.
Speaker B:Well, I'm going to put two together.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:And they are drinking A Love Story and Rachel's Holiday.
Speaker B:So drinking Love Stories by Caroline Knapp.
Speaker B:Rachel's Holiday is by marion keys.
Speaker B: And: Speaker B:And it's the year that both these books came out, and I read them in quick succession of each other.
Speaker B:And I was 26 going into 27 years old that year, and I was already in a place of substance misuse, so I was drinking and Other things, it was quite a ravy time in my life and I at the time didn't.
Speaker B:Was had no awareness of addiction or alcoholism or anything.
Speaker B:And certainly the image I had in mind of what an addict looked like was either someone on the street begging or an old man with a big red nose wearing an overcoat tied up with string.
Speaker B:You know, I just had this kind of stereotypical image in my mind of what an addict looked like.
Speaker B:And yet something led me to buy Drinking A Love Story and to get Rachel's Holiday.
Speaker B:And both those books are about addiction and they're about active addiction that looks and presents like fun.
Speaker B:And I was hugely impacted by both of them.
Speaker B:Drinking A Love Story I found terrifying because it made me realize that I was going to have to give up alcohol at some point.
Speaker B:And Rachel's Holiday is probably still the best portrayal fiction of portrayal of addiction I've ever read.
Speaker B:And what I loved about it and what I love about Mary Keys, everyone knows I'm a Marion Keys superfan, is that she writes about addiction with heartbreak and humor, which again is something I strive for in my own writing.
Speaker B:And both of these books had such an impact on me as a 26, 27 year old.
Speaker B:They were like the beginning of the end for me, as in it took me another 10 years to get sober, I'm sad to say, but those books marked the beginning of that journey for me because once I'd read them, I could never go back to thinking that my drinking amusing were healthy.
Speaker B:So I they, you know, if you ever want to know if books can change lives, my answer is a big fat yes because both of these books led to me getting sober at the age of 37.
Speaker A:That's really interesting and thank you so much for sharing your story.
Speaker A:I think when these two came up on your list, I was like, I only read Rachel's Holiday earlier this year.
Speaker A:It's been picked before by Claire Pooley, Claire Douglas and Beth o'.
Speaker A:Leary.
Speaker A:And I read it and I was thinking if I'd read that in my 20s, I don't think that I would have been like at the beginning, I'd be like, she's all right, she's having a laugh.
Speaker A:She's, you know.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:All of it's a bit much, isn't it?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Because while I wouldn't say I was sort of on a very similar path to her, you know, my drinking was sort of of different to others in that, you know, my quiet glass of wine would always end in a night, shall we say?
Speaker A:So I Stopped drinking on my 40th birthday.
Speaker A:So I've been eight years and I was like, I would be really interested to sort of go back and see.
Speaker A:So I think that it planted a seed for you.
Speaker B:Yes, it did.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And took that time.
Speaker A:It does change lives and it's a really hard thing to do.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think that's amazing.
Speaker A:So is drinking a love story?
Speaker A:Is that a non fiction then?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's a memoir.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And Caroline Knapp is or was.
Speaker B:She died young, I'm really sad to say.
Speaker B:I. I really miss her because she wrote other books afterwards and I love them, but she was the person that introduced me to the idea of a functioning alcoholic.
Speaker B:So somebody who on the outside their life looks great, but underneath it it's falling apart.
Speaker B:And she was a journalist in Boston and had on the surface just a wonderful successful life, but inside obviously was struggling with alcohol.
Speaker B:Yes, it was, it was a life changing read.
Speaker A:And interesting then the sort of fiction and non fiction.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:But I think it's so brilliant that people.
Speaker A:Because I know even when I stopped drinking in my 40s, I felt a bit embarrassed because people are like, oh, what's going on?
Speaker A:Or you know.
Speaker A:But now I think it's.
Speaker A:Yeah, it sounds weird to say it's accepted, but people don't sort of raise an eyebrow about it now, do they?
Speaker A:It's so like, oh, you don't drink this, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, no one cares.
Speaker B:No one cares anymore.
Speaker B:And I'm really grateful for that.
Speaker B:I mean I'm, you know, 18 years sober now, so I sort of don't ever give it a second thought.
Speaker B:Yeah, but I, I remember at the time, and particularly, you know, in the 90s, we were all in the kind of Ladette Ravy culture and it was much more common to be out at the weekends, drinking, doing other things.
Speaker B:And I think the culture is less like that now.
Speaker A:I think so.
Speaker A:I mean it might have just got to 13, so I don't really want to think too much about that.
Speaker B:No, don't.
Speaker B:In fact, don't.
Speaker B:Yeah, don't think about it.
Speaker A:Let's just talk about books.
Speaker B:Yeah, perfect.
Speaker A:Bury our head and talk about books.
Speaker A:Okay, so should we move on then to your.
Speaker A:So this is gonna be your fourth choice then as next.
Speaker A:We've done this.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So my fourth choice is To Kill a Mockingbird.
Speaker B:And I actually didn't read this as a child, I read it as an adult.
Speaker B:And I say child, I mean kind of young adult.
Speaker B:I read it as an actual adult and I just Remember thinking it was perfect.
Speaker B:And I still think it's perfect in that it made me laugh, it made me cry.
Speaker B:The characters to me are still.
Speaker B:They were, and are living, breathing human beings.
Speaker B:And it touches on some of the most difficult issues, but with a story and a lightness of touch that it never feels like being preached at or that the book has a message in any way, shape or form.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's perfect.
Speaker A:Do you know, I want to just take a snapshot of what you just said because it's perfect.
Speaker A:What we were talking at the weekend about banned books and To Kill a Mockingbird being on there, and I was like, I just think it's such a great way.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Through fiction, for people to understand each other.
Speaker A:Like, you don't have to agree with people, but it's like what you've just said just really sums up that how words on a page can.
Speaker A:I mean, I do think they can make the world a better place in that if people understand one another.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:More.
Speaker A:I'm actually going to be rereading because I don't know, when I read it, I feel like I was a bit older as well.
Speaker A:Certainly wasn't young young when I read it, but I feel like it's a reread for me coming up.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Have you read it since?
Speaker B:Yeah, I've read it many times.
Speaker A:Have you?
Speaker B:Many times, and it still is, to me.
Speaker B:It's still perfect.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Your fifth choice then, Jenny.
Speaker B:Oh, you see?
Speaker B:And if you'd asked me what's my favorite book of all time that I would have struggled with because it would have been To Kill a Mockingbird and Persuasion by Jane Austen.
Speaker B:I wouldn't be able to choose between the two.
Speaker B:And I mean, again, to me, Jane Austen is perfect.
Speaker B:And I had to read Mansfield park for my sixth form English.
Speaker B:And I remember thinking, this is such an old book.
Speaker B:I'm never going to get into the style of writing.
Speaker B:I'm never going to enjoy it.
Speaker B:What has it got to tell me?
Speaker B:And yet, even though it was Mansfield park, which is my least favorite Austen, which Nikki May, the author, and I often argue about, by the way, because it's her favorite.
Speaker B:Yeah, she loves it.
Speaker B:But even though I was reading Mansfield Park, I found myself caring deeply and laughing at Jane Austen's humor.
Speaker B:And, you know, Mantle park for me, was my Jane Austen gateway.
Speaker B:I then read all the rest in quick succession.
Speaker B:I adore every single novel she's written.
Speaker B:Actually, Northanger Abbey's probably my least favorite.
Speaker B:Mansfield Park's the next one.
Speaker B:But it wasn't until I've got older that I really fully appreciated Persuasion and saw the richness and depth of story, of character, of emotion that's in Persuasion in a way that I hadn't fully appreciated as a younger woman.
Speaker B:And I don't know.
Speaker B:I've read it upwards of 30 times.
Speaker B:I think it's my comfort book.
Speaker B:I call it my Teddy Bear.
Speaker B:In that if ever I'm feeling down or sad or I'm finding it really difficult to switch off from the world, Persuasion is where I go because I can get lost in its words.
Speaker B:And what I find is every time I read it, I notice something new, which, again, is a very special thing to achieve as a writer, I think.
Speaker B:I mean, it was her 250th anniversary a couple of days ago.
Speaker A:Was it?
Speaker B:And that, to me, is astonishing.
Speaker B:And there's a famous review that says, gave Pride and Prejudice naught stars because it says all it is about is other people going to each other's houses.
Speaker B:And again, if we talk about my aspirations as a writer, that's what I like to write about.
Speaker B:Like, people's real lives, people's ordinary real lives going to each other's houses and what special, rich stories you can get from that.
Speaker B:And that's what Jane Austen reflects.
Speaker B:And I adore her.
Speaker A:Do you know something I love about this podcast?
Speaker A:When I first started doing it, I had this really sort of deep embarrassment about Jane Austen in that I would remember being at school and just feeling stupid in class and not getting it.
Speaker A:And I was convinced through the show to pick up Pride and Prejudice.
Speaker A:And I've read it.
Speaker A:And now hearing you talk about Persuasion, when I first started doing this, I'd be like, no, no, no, no.
Speaker A:I'm like, no, I'm quite excited to try it, because I know now to read it as a book, not as something to study and just try to enjoy it rather than diving in and highlighting passages.
Speaker A:And what does that really mean?
Speaker B:No, you genuinely.
Speaker B:And Persuasion, for me, is a real page turner because there's a lost love at the heart of the story.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Please read Persuasion, and then we can talk about it, Helen.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A: It's gonna be my: Speaker B:Great.
Speaker A:To do it.
Speaker A:So you can hold me accountable to that.
Speaker A:I'll be like, yeah, now I've just put pressure on myself again.
Speaker B:Yeah, you have.
Speaker A:Like, I won't put pressure.
Speaker B:You can't help it.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:Yeah, I can't help it.
Speaker A:I can't help it.
Speaker A:So, Jenny, then.
Speaker A:I know this is mean.
Speaker A:But if you could only read one of those books again.
Speaker B:Persuasion.
Speaker A:Persuasion, yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I wouldn't do that to you because I was thinking.
Speaker A:Oh, were you going to go for To Kill a Mockingbird?
Speaker A:No, I wasn't sure.
Speaker B:Persuasion.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Easy peasy.
Speaker A:Jenny, it has been such a joy to chat to you.
Speaker A:I absolutely love this so much.
Speaker A:I could chat to you all day.
Speaker B:Yeah, same here.
Speaker B:Helen, I've enjoyed this immensely.
Speaker B:I feel like we should start a book club.
Speaker A:Yeah, perfect.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Usually when I finish recording an episode, I want to dive straight into all the book recommendations, but today I'm actually really tempted to try and unearth some old Brookside episodes and see if it really was as good as I remember.
Speaker A:And of course, I must watch the Live Aid documentary as well.
Speaker A:I really hope that you've enjoyed this episode as much as I have.
Speaker A:The barbecue at number nine is out today.
Speaker A:It is a brilliant read, so do treat yourself to a copy.
Speaker A:All of the books that we've talked about today are listed in the show notes with links to buy as well.
Speaker A:I'll be back next Thursday with the last in this season.
Speaker A:Don't worry.
Speaker A:More are on the way though, and I really hope that you'll join me for that episode too.
Speaker A:If you are enjoying the show, I would be so grateful if you could take the time to to rate, review, subscribe and most importantly, tell your friends all about it.
Speaker A:It really does make a huge difference to the show.
Speaker A:Thanks for listening and I'll see you next Thursday.
